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Benjamin's Britain
Benjamin's Britain
18: Brunel's Thames Tunnel
Welcome back to Season 3 of Benjamin's Britain, the podcast where we discuss Ben Salamon's mad scheme of visiting all 500 sites in Clive Aslett's "Landmarks of Britain".
Joining Ben is regular co-host Nicky Pavitt and Ben's oldest friend Chris "Brunel-fanboy" Jones. Chris is a fellow Welshman, chartered engineer, rugby lover and has a lot to say about bridges... You will not be surprised the Chris chose a trip to a Brunel family landmark to discuss today along with an alternatively landmark from his hometown of Bristol which has been in the news just this week!
Enjoy!
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Transcript
00:00:00 Ben
Since 2016 I've been visiting every site.
00:00:03 Ben
In Clive as let's landmarks of Britain.
00:00:05 Ben
The 500 places that made our history.
00:00:08 Ben
In this podcast, we'll be discussing the castles, caves, cathedrals and country homes visited along the way. For those who have joined me.
00:00:14 Ben
I'm Ben Solomon.
00:00:16 Ben
As always, I'm here with Nikki.
00:00:17 Ben
Babbitt hello.
00:00:18 Ben
And this is our first episode.
00:00:20 Ben
Of season three, Nikki, we're back.
00:00:23 Nicky
Yep, we've we've had a a break of about what, six months or so.
00:00:26 Speaker 3
And now.
00:00:27 Ben
This break.
00:00:28 Ben
Whilst we've been on.
00:00:28 Ben
A break people have continued to listen to our.
00:00:30 Ben
Podcast, which which we've been.
00:00:31 Nicky
I know amazing.
00:00:33 Ben
Well, I've been a bit surprised.
00:00:34 Ben
By we haven't been promoting it, but.
00:00:36 Nicky
Yeah, we got a couple of.
00:00:37 Nicky
People that just think you.
00:00:38 Nicky
Know what I haven't heard in?
00:00:39 Nicky
A while anyway, it's been very nice to to still see the numbers ticking up.
00:00:44 Nicky
Which means we're back.
00:00:46 Nicky
Yeah, we've got some good guests. We've got some good episodes coming up which will be releasing every other week for the next couple of months.
00:00:53 Ben
Yes, so we're starting off with my oldest friend, Chris Jones. He's an engineer. He's a rugby fanatic. He loves the city of Bristol.
00:01:01 Ben
Where he lives.
00:01:02 Ben
And even though he hasn't done many landmarks, he well, you'll hear he has a particularly special honour in the world of landmarks. And I think it's fair to say Nikki.
00:01:12 Ben
That he was.
00:01:13 Ben
Quite enthusiastic about the subject matter.
00:01:16 Nicky
Yes, definitely, yes. He definitely was. He also has picked an alternative landmark which was particularly relevant to the news that's been going on, not only in the last two years, but in the last two weeks. Yes, it's very exciting.
00:01:16 Ben
That that that we don't want to discuss.
00:01:32 Ben
In fact, when we recorded this chat.
00:01:36 Ben
Uh, a certain news story hadn't even emerged about the landmark that we end up discussing, so it's it's that relevant.
00:01:42 Nicky
OK, let's go onto it then, shall we?
00:01:44 Ben
We hope you enjoy.
00:01:52 Speaker 4
Many, many years ago, then got a book.
00:01:56 Speaker 4
History and the challenge here took. Visit all the sides, tick off everyone. Ben would not be satisfied till each of.
00:02:04 Speaker 4
Them was done.
00:02:06 Speaker 4
From England to Scotland, Ireland, Wales. You can counter Benjamin to know the facts and tales. So common, right?
00:02:16 Speaker 4
Long long Benjamin Britten gets to know the places in the spaces around you.
00:02:24 Speaker 4
And also there's Nicky pub.
00:02:28 Ben
Our guest this week is Chris Jones, Chris. Welcome to the Benjamin Britten podcast. Hello.
00:02:34 Chris
Thanks for finally having me.
00:02:36 Ben
It's a pleasure to have you here, Chris. Here's the thing. Here's the thing I wanted to make sure that podcast was in the best possible place before we invited Chris on.
00:02:45 Ben
Yeah, you know, the first seasons were just testers or just pilots basically leading up to.
00:02:49 Ben
This point, Chris has a very special role in my life. For two main reasons. Firstly he is.
00:02:55 Ben
Literally my oldest friend, and by that I mean you I couldn't have a friend who I've known for longer because I met Chris on the day I was born. Chris, do you remember it?
00:03:06 Chris
Yeah, yeah, vividly, uh, it took a while for me to get used to I I didn't really like you at 1st.
00:03:11 Chris
I think for the first few months it was.
00:03:12 Chris
Quite antagonistic so we we got there.
00:03:16 Ben
Yeah, I believe our mums went antenatal classes together.
00:03:20 Chris
They say they got stuck in the door with their big bellies. I'm not sure I believe it.
00:03:23 Speaker 6
Well, the legend is.
00:03:24 Ben
That that was our first fist bump.
00:03:26 Ben
Right in in the womb.
00:03:29 Nicky
Wait so did they like agree that they were going to give birth on the same?
00:03:32 Nicky
Day or something Chris is older.
00:03:34 Chris
Six weeks older.
00:03:35 Nicky
OK, that makes sense.
00:03:38 Ben
So at six weeks old, Chris was already very articulate talking about engineering whilst I was on the day I was born, he was already giving lectures and it was. It was fascinating from day one.
00:03:47 Nicky
Chris, your mum thought I know it's I need to go and visit this newborn baby and I'm going to bring my own baby to on the on the day that you were born then.
00:03:57 Chris
I know worst mistake she ever met.
00:04:03 Ben
But we've yeah because of that historic moment, we've kind of been tide together since literally since day one. And Chris, I hope you're there. My last day as well. It'll be a nice nice completing the circle.
00:04:14 Chris
No, no, I'm going to die.
00:04:16 Chris
1st so I think about six weeks before you just to mirror it.
00:04:20 Ben
So does that mean when you die that the clock is on me? I got six weeks, I got six weeks to go and that's going.
00:04:25 Ben
To be my signal, OK, yeah.
00:04:25 Chris
Yeah and no more.
00:04:27 Chris
I don't care if you have to jump off a bridge, preferably the Clifton suspension, but six weeks.
00:04:32 Ben
Yeah, OK Chris please Please wait, it's like finished all 500 landmarks until that moment because it'll be a panicked final six week otherwise.
00:04:43 Ben
There's priorities for this last six weeks because I grew up together high school together, we've been. We've been friends since day one, but Chris is very special.
00:04:53 Ben
Also, in the world of Benjamin Britten. Because I did my first ever historical landmark with Mr Chris Jones in Bristol.
00:05:02 Chris
Wow special moment.
00:05:04 Nicky
But those were the early days. They weren't quite as sophisticated, were they?
00:05:09 Chris
It's true we didn't know what we were doing.
00:05:12 Ben
We didn't have a clue. I'd received the book Christmas 2015. In Jan 2016 I came.
00:05:17 Ben
To visit Chris.
00:05:18 Ben
And I remember I'd already said to myself I'm going to visit every site in this book, not knowing what that actually meant for me and my life.
00:05:26 Ben
But before I went to visit Chris and Bristol, I had just had a look to see what in the book was in Bristol.
00:05:32 Ben
And there was one. And somehow Chris, I can't remember how. But somehow I convinced.
00:05:36 Ben
You to take me there or were we in?
00:05:38 Ben
The neighbourhood already oh.
00:05:40 Ben
How did that come about?
00:05:40 Chris
We were walking around the harbour and we were opposite from it. We never actually got within about 50 metres of it but we got the photo and that's what counts.
00:05:50 Nicky
Yeah, Ben wouldn't put up with that these days.
00:05:52 Speaker 6
No way, no way.
00:05:55 Ben
Much to my shame, we never actually went inside it. I mean, honestly, I would. Yeah, I wouldn't stand for that today.
00:06:03 Chris
My inside is super creepy. There's a load of like wax people and wax rats.
00:06:09 Chris
And I'm I'm happy with just the outside photo to be honest.
00:06:13 Ben
Landmark number one was the SS Great Britain in Bristol. Since then I've done 360 more landmarks and I've still never been inside the sea Britain and somehow it just keeps eluding me. Maybe Chris your chat of wax rats or just just put me off for life now.
00:06:28 Chris
Mate, you've got new ones to find. You can't waste time going back and seeing old ones always moving forwards.
00:06:34 Ben
It's true, it's true.
00:06:36 Nicky
It won't be too long before round two.
00:06:38 Nicky
Right?
00:06:38 Ben
Yeah, you know it won't be too long until we do the victory lap and escaping the first one when we will get.
00:06:46 Ben
Chris, one on that first day did I explain to you about the book about what I was thinking about doing?
00:06:54 Chris
I knew about the book.
00:06:55 Chris
I don't think you'd quite decided that you're going to go on this match journey, but I think we had such a great day that.
00:07:02 Chris
You can help, but not like you had to.
00:07:05 Chris
We capture that beautiful feeling.
00:07:06 Ben
So you're right.
00:07:07 Ben
Chris, if that. If that had been a bad experience the whole thing could have been blown up after one landmark.
00:07:12 Ben
But thankfully I enjoyed my time and this is everything that's followed. Since is your fault, that's.
00:07:17 Ben
Basically what I'm.
00:07:18 Chris
Hearing, Yep, you're welcome listeners. You're welcome.
00:07:23 Nicky
And all this time I've spent in podcasts and it's all just because you 2 going on silly trip to go and see a boat.
00:07:32 Ben
That's right, was even more special about Chris? I mean, I'm just now just.
00:07:37 Ben
With praise just.
00:07:38 Ben
Keeps on coming, but Chris actually did my second ever landmark too.
00:07:42 Ben
So he was, you know he.
00:07:43 Ben
Was two for.
00:07:44 Ben
Two right at the start of this this.
00:07:45 Nicky
Process he could have gone the distance.
00:07:49 Chris
I'm not sure that counts as praised.
00:07:53 Ben
Listen, Chris in this world of the Benjamin Button podcast that is highest praise you.
00:07:57 Ben
Could possibly.
00:07:58 Ben
I, I mean, you might not know this, Chris, if you've actually done 9 landmarks in total since those first two were ticked off.
00:08:05 Chris
That is pathetic.
00:08:08 Speaker 3
It's good.
00:08:08 Nicky
I was going to say that that's cute.
00:08:12 Ben
I've said to Chris, there's a landmark that I want to visit with him in 2022. I don't want to know what it is, but it's.
00:08:19 Ben
I'll give him.
00:08:19 Ben
A clue, it's it's math space.
00:08:22 Ben
And there was no one else I'd rather do a maths based landmark with.
00:08:26 Ben
And Chris Jones.
00:08:27 Ben
So keep an eye out for that on the Instagram page next year.
00:08:30 Chris
You do realise I'm not a mathematician, right? I am a chartered civil engineer.
00:08:36 Ben
That's right.
00:08:37 Ben
I knew Chris was going to be an engineer from the time we were. We were about five or six.
00:08:42 Ben
Is old and I used to go over the Christmas house and he had a connect set drama connects Nikki like they're like.
00:08:47 Nicky
Yeah, it's full of other names.
00:08:49 Ben
Yeah, I mean these little. How do you describe like like Lego but more complex for building things and I would, you know, I build like a box or something and Chris would have built the whole Ferris wheel roller coaster.
00:09:01 Chris
I wasn't given a choice pen. My dad said chartered engineer, my Grandad child engineer and I was given connect saying Lego is for brick layers. Can access for engineers. There you go so.
00:09:18 Ben
Amazing, that's amazing.
00:09:18 Nicky
I used to hate those ones that were like almost this shape because you used to get halfwheel almost, and then there were some that were.
00:09:25 Nicky
Almost a 2/3.
00:09:27 Ben
Oh yes, yeah.
00:09:28 Ben
It's got like a corner of the pie missing.
00:09:31 Nicky
Yeah, a little bit of the pie missing and they were and then clipping those there like sticks into them. Hurt your thumbs or thumbs very much.
00:09:39 Ben
Chest oh, I can see that I can feel.
00:09:40 Chris
That's true.
00:09:41 Ben
It on my tongue now, yeah.
00:09:42 Nicky
I could feel it.
00:09:44 Nicky
And then you kind of have to sort of snap them out again when you're dismantling and those they used to get the really tiny ones. The white with really tiny white ones.
00:09:54 Chris
Now the tiny tiny ones are green. I've got a box set over here I.
00:09:58 Chris
Can go and show if you want.
00:10:00 Nicky
Oh God.
00:10:01 Nicky
Yeah, screw the history. Let's talk about connects.
00:10:04 Ben
I would like to see a connects lamb hog.
00:10:09 Chris
Challenge accepted.
00:10:11 Ben
You choose whichever landmark you want. Millennium Stadium would be a great one, but you know, it's up to you.
00:10:16 Chris
I've chosen you won't be disappointed.
00:10:21 Nicky
So you saying you knew Chris was going to be an engineer from 5 or 6 playing I, I don't.
00:10:27 Nicky
I dare say I don't wanna say playing 'cause I feel like that's wrong. Feel like that's wrong. Constructing with connects and that was you knew from that moment, yeah?
00:10:33 Speaker 3
Yes, building.
00:10:36 Ben
But Chris, this is a history podcast. So what I want to know from you is obviously I you love the sciences. The maths at school, but did you ever love studying history at school?
00:10:51 Chris
I've enjoyed history stuff since.
00:10:54 Chris
The old podcast your documentary.
00:10:56 Ben
Interesting, interesting. Do you think you've come to history after school? Do you think school lessons just did nothing for you?
00:11:02 Chris
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so there's. There's things that just click with you and make your head go.
00:11:09 Chris
Oh my God wow, how did that ever happen? How did that exist? How did someone make that? How did someone come to form that? And it's just yeah, not the kind of thing you learn in the timeline in a classroom.
00:11:21 Chris
I've thoroughly enjoyed topping up my head full of banal facts, but the Russian Revolution in year 10 apart from the word Bolshevik, I have not a clue.
00:11:32 Ben
Yeah that yeah, but you know?
00:11:33 Ben
It's when you find.
00:11:34 Ben
That thing that you are absolutely passionate about and don't care, who knows and who doesn't. It's it's a thing of beauty.
00:11:42 Nicky
Be lovely, Ben.
00:11:42 Chris
But it turns out for me it's Brunell and that's happening today.
00:11:48 Nicky
Oh yes.
00:11:49 Ben
OK, that's a good link actually.
00:11:50 Chris
Can I start with a quote that I found?
00:11:53 Ben
Please please please do Chris.
00:11:55 Chris
And it says when Brunel was born, most people regarded engineering as a profession for clever but dull people. By the time he died, engineering was glamorous and exciting. So let's.
00:12:07 Nicky
Oh yeah.
00:12:09 Chris
That's what I'm bringing today.
00:12:13 Ben
OK, we need to take a few steps back though I think.
00:12:16 Ben
Because obviously Chris we ask every guest to ring for discussion. One of the landmarks that we have visited together.
00:12:25 Ben
So I think the listeners might have got a few clues, but would you like to introduce properly the landmark you've chosen to bring to rest today?
00:12:33 Chris
Yeah we are.
00:12:34 Chris
Bringing Mark brunell's. Thames Tunnel, which was the springboard for isn't Bard Kingdom. My boy to start his illustrious career.
00:12:47 Ben
So today we're calling a Brunell bonanza. It's all about the brunels today and and a few a few of the landmarks associated with them in my book which are done with Chris, which is which has been a joy as you can hear he is super enthusiastic about them.
00:13:02 Chris
I'm going to sprinkle some Brunell joy. Oh.
00:13:05
What's this?
00:13:05 Chris
There's going to be here and there going.
00:13:07 Chris
To be a bit spicy.
00:13:08 Nicky
Oh my gosh.
00:13:09 Ben
If I may set the scene.
00:13:10 Ben
For us to start with.
00:13:12 Ben
This was a landmark that Chris and I visited in 2017. It's in southeast London Place called Rather Hive, which I think my visit there with Chris was the first and only time I've been there.
00:13:24 Ben
Before, since right on the River Thames and it was, it was my 163rd landmark, it was.
00:13:32 Ben
It was a fun landmark, Chris. Why don't you tell us what the landmark actually is? We do a lot of castles and cathedrals in this podcast, but this is quite new in terms of what you can actually go and visit today.
00:13:43 Chris
Huh, yeah yeah you can't see much. It is a shaft, a big circular hole. That was the start of the Thames Tunnel. So 1825 is started being built and it was the first ever tunnel underneath the Thames.
00:13:49 Speaker 3
Second, stop.
00:14:01 Chris
To allow thousands of workers every day to move north to South. The thinking was that a bridge would have to be way too high to allow any sailing ships to pass underneath, so they embarked on this, which was the most ambitious engineering project of the day, and it was started like we said by Mark Brunell, isn't bad dad.
00:14:23 Ben
In my in my book it says that not only was it the first tunnel under the Thames, but apparently was the first tunnel in the world under a navigable river.
00:14:32 Speaker 3
Oh wait.
00:14:33 Ben
Which is quite.
00:14:34 Ben
Cool that London and and you know the UK can make.
00:14:36 Ben
Claims that Grinnell.
00:14:37 Chris
Thank you, I'm in ALS plural.
00:14:40 Nicky
I have been a different time to both of you. I went a few years before that.
00:14:46 Nicky
If I can remember, it's basically like a big round hole massive.
00:14:51 Nicky
Yeah, massive hole in the ground and then the tunnel was built from in that big hole.
00:14:58 Ben
Yeah, yes.
00:14:59 Nicky
You go down and then you go across.
00:15:01 Ben
That's right, that's.
00:15:02 Speaker 3
Thank you.
00:15:03 Nicky
And I can't remember exactly how he did it, but they had some kind of way of moving the the Earth.
00:15:08 Chris
Yes, yes.
00:15:11 Chris
The moving of the Earth out was the big innovation that Mark came up with. Allowed this to be done in the first place.
00:15:18 Chris
He came up with this tunnelling shield, which kind of had this big piece of steel at the front where people would dig out at the the very four of the tunnel, and placing a lining behind them.
00:15:31 Chris
And progress forward bit by bit with that sort of supporting everything between the lining and the open face.
00:15:37 Chris
Is basically how tunnels are still made. Like a lot of HS2, London Underground. Everything that you see made now uses kind of shield type techniques and tunnel boring machines and things that actually keep a pressure at that front end, which he basically came up with to manage.
00:15:41 Nicky
Oh wow.
00:15:43 Speaker 3
Let me.
00:15:55 Chris
To do this?
00:15:57 Nicky
If you don't have that pressure, what happens?
00:16:00 Chris
The front end falls in, yeah.
00:16:03 Ben
They've got a museum attached to the shaft, which you can go down where they show what this this shield looked like, and if I remember correctly, the miners are actually, you know, on this piece of equipment, absolutely dwarfed by the size of it. And they're just.
00:16:17 Ben
They're just like shovelling away like a couple of centimetres of soil, aren't they?
00:16:22 Ben
And then chucking it behind them.
00:16:23 Ben
And slowly this machine just edges its way forward underneath the riverbed and then some. Some brick layers are behind it I guess in my mind they're like hastily like really.
00:16:28
Took off
00:16:33 Ben
Quickly laying bricks.
00:16:34 Nicky
Like a cartoon or something?
00:16:36 Ben
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:38 Ben
Mickey saying he was saying when you visited though because when when we went there was a nice staircase to walk down the shaft, but that wasn't the case.
00:16:46 Ben
When you turned out, right?
00:16:47 Nicky
No, I went. I would guess it was about maybe 2014 something like.
00:16:51 Nicky
That there's like a bit above. There's like a raised kind of garden.
00:16:56 Ben
Yeah, there was some stuff on the service level, yeah?
00:16:58 Nicky
I don't. I'm sure there's a funk.
00:17:00 Nicky
Mission of it or they used to be a function and they've basically planted a garden there, and in the summer they call it like the midnight Apothecary.
00:17:10 Nicky
So I'm assuming that wasn't the case when you were there that you missed out because you go and get these little drinks from this little wooden bar and they make it out of the herbs from the garden.
00:17:20 Nicky
Ah, that's.
00:17:22 Nicky
And then when we were there, this guy was.
00:17:24 Nicky
I say random guy 'cause it did did seem pretty random. Was just like anyone want to go down the tunnel and we were just.
00:17:32 Nicky
Kind of like, uh?
00:17:35 Nicky
OK, like I wasn't there to go in. I'm pretty sure it wasn't open to the public in the same way that it is now.
00:17:42 Speaker 3
Right?
00:17:43 Nicky
Anyway, this guy was just like, yeah, anyone must come down in the tunnel and we're just like sure.
00:17:48 Nicky
If you do.
00:17:49 Nicky
It could have been a serial killer.
00:17:51 Nicky
And he took 1000 scaffolding, literally.
00:17:56 Nicky
With with ladders.
00:17:58 Ben
Sounds safe, yeah yeah.
00:17:59 Nicky
Yep, and took us down where they were clearly intending to build the this staircase that you both you both saw and used.
00:18:08
Is it?
00:18:08 Nicky
Went all the way down and then you had to climb all the way back up on this scaffolding.
00:18:12 Nicky
Anyway, that's my that was my recollection of it. I don't think I think they were planning to make it a bit more of a tourist attraction at the time, but.
00:18:20 Chris
We were clearly, absolutely.
00:18:21 Chris
Pampered by the presence of a staircase though.
00:18:24 Nicky
Yeah, you were definitely.
00:18:27 Ben
Christmas song is.
00:18:28 Ben
This on playing the piano.
00:18:30 Chris
So yeah, I didn't remember this, but in the photos there.
00:18:34 Chris
Is literally a.
00:18:34 Chris
Guy playing the piano and I think I.
00:18:37 Chris
Think he was serenading us.
00:18:38 Chris
And I think Ben and Chris, those words were in the song and I think it was very romantic.
00:18:43 Ben
Good 'cause it's it's. It's quite amazing space. It's dark in there. There's only artificial lighting isn't there? And they do use that space for concerts today, which would be absolutely amazing to go see.
00:18:53 Chris
Yeah, that was why.
00:18:57 Chris
Made after like all the echoes around here.
00:19:01 Nicky
I have a question, is there some kind of connexion with the tunnel?
00:19:05 Nicky
And the London Overground.
00:19:08 Chris
Yeah, the Overground ran through that tunnel.
00:19:10 Ben
Well Chris, let's talk a bit more about that because the tunnel when it was designed by Mark.
00:19:16 Ben
Brunel, it wasn't for trains, was it? It was for pedestrians first.
00:19:20 Chris
Yeah yeah and they they like threw a.
00:19:23 Chris
Load of carnivals and dinner parties in it and things 'cause it was just just this open tube and they had like all these tables set out for like big opening dinner parties and literally grand and like quite a cool thing. Mark got ill and had to basically.
00:19:29 Speaker 3
Well, oh.
00:19:34 Nicky
Cycle wow.
00:19:41 Chris
Leave the project and leave isn't bad in chat.
00:19:44 Chris
And as like a thank you for this big opening party, you Mark didn't attend, you just let isn't bad. Have his moment like what a good dad.
00:19:54 Ben
Nice and we should say that isn't barred Kingdom Brunel. Who's the sun, is probably the Brunel that you think of when you hear the name. Yeah, we're we're focusing on the dad for the time being.
00:20:04 Nicky
If you look at the images on Google images of this of this tunnel, which I have seen before, but I forgot about.
00:20:10 Nicky
Them it looks pretty snazzy.
00:20:12 Chris
Yeah, they they've got a load of like alcoves and buttresses and it's all proper like crenellated, brickwork type awesomeness.
00:20:21 Ben
I remember in the museum exhibition there's a couple of photos of the crowds turning up to see the opening of this tunnel, and it was, like, uh, yeah, proper party.
00:20:30 Ben
And can you just?
00:20:31 Ben
You just. It's hard to imagine anyone turning up to see a tunnel opening today. I'm trying to think what the equivalent is. Maybe it's like if a rocket ship was going off.
00:20:40 Ben
You know you, you turn up to see that.
00:20:43 Chris
The Victorians loved it. A million people visited in the first three months, not necessarily because they wanted to cross the grounds. Just because this was the marvel of the day, and they all wanted.
00:20:55 Chris
Oh wow, like there's stories about isn't bad after this being like such a celebrity. He basically married a Kardashian.
00:21:06 Chris
Like the newspaper had followed his life in minute detail, there's this story where he accidentally breathed in a coin doing a magic trick and like the papers were following his recovery and all his surgeries and they were like isn't bad gonna be OK.
00:21:20 Chris
He was like the main man everyone and everyone wanted to know.
00:21:23 Chris
About him
00:21:24 Ben
According to Clive, who wrote the book.
00:21:26 Ben
But he wrote the book back in 2005, so it's well out of date now. He says it's still used by London Underground trains between Whitechapel and Mother Hive could get that chewed journey and potentially go through Brunel.
00:21:39 Ben
Tunnel I've got it noted that it was. It was opened in 1843, so we're talking Victorian times.
00:21:46 Chris
It was.
00:21:47 Ben
Used by pedestrians for 20 odd years, but it was purchased by the East London Railway Company in 1865. So from that point onwards it was for it was for trains only.
00:22:00 Chris
Should we say we're on this point while he was doing it first?
00:22:04 Chris
The turn up flooded five times and there were like 3 fires. This was not smooth sailing and his ambard nearly died, nearly died twice he went and saved someone the first time it flooded when he was in charge and the second or third time he was found unconscious, floating and saved just about.
00:22:24 Ben
Oh my gosh, these are dangerous engineering projects these.
00:22:28 Nicky
Back in the day, you had to really try and kill yourself.
00:22:29 Nicky
To be a celebrity, didn't you?
00:22:34 Ben
In a really dramatic fashion as well.
00:22:35 Chris
Yeah, so it was.
00:22:37 Chris
It's super super innovative and cutting edge, but also absolutely horrendous for the people working in it. So it was like pretty much always partly full of water full of sewage and everyone working on it.
00:22:52 Chris
Was ill like OK all the time?
00:22:54 Chris
Look lovely for now. The way he fixed it when it collapsed really badly is pretty awesome. He went down in.
00:22:56 Speaker 3
Right?
00:23:01 Chris
What's called diving bell.
00:23:03 Chris
Which was like this pressurised container that had metal above him and nothing but the pressurised.
00:23:11 Chris
The surface of the water held below him so he could inspect what had happened from the top, which again like he did not mind dying this guy.
00:23:19 Speaker 3
OK.
00:23:21 Nicky
Clearly not.
00:23:23 Ben
He didn't mind getting his hands Dirty Abou now.
00:23:24 Chris
He took his mum down it as well.
00:23:27 Nicky
Oh my God.
00:23:28 Ben
When Chris and I went there, we explored the shaft, had a good old time in the museum, but as as we know.
00:23:35 Ben
Nicky all good.
00:23:36 Ben
Landmark visits are often paired with a with an appropriate path and the pub we visited Chris on that day. One of the strong.
00:23:44 Ben
The ones and your photo album from the day confirmed that it was called the Mayflower, which really recommend you know it, Nikki, it's such a good pub.
00:23:49 Nicky
I know which one you mean, yeah, yeah.
00:23:53 Ben
It's historic and dates from Tudor times. It was a good Benjamin Britten pub to visit, but the best thing about it is at the back and it feels like a place pirates would have gone to.
00:24:05 Ben
It's got a jetty like a decking which sticks out over the over the Thames.
00:24:08 Ben
A little bit, so you're having you're having your beer over the Thames and, well, Chris, obviously Chris and I obviously enjoyed a post landmark pint.
00:24:16 Chris
There's this sign that says in 1620 I'm reading out from the photo local Rotherhithe man Christopher Jones moored his ship, the Mayflower, at this jetty had a skinful and headed in his pro cimage to the land of the free.
00:24:32 Nicky
What's an absolute lad?
00:24:36 Nicky
I mean, you basically did exactly the same thing.
00:24:40 Nicky
More or less word for word, I would say.
00:24:43 Chris
The skinful yes.
00:24:44 Ben
And then we headed.
00:24:46 Speaker 4
I don't know.
00:24:47 Nicky
It's a it's a cool problem. It's got like the.
00:24:48 Nicky
Nice little outdoor.
00:24:50 Nicky
Garden bit the like the jetty. You're right on the middle of the on the Thames.
00:24:55 Nicky
Yeah, it's a. It's a good spot and it's about what a minute walk two minutes walk from the museum.
00:25:01 Ben
It's literally around the corner. It could not be more perfect sometimes. Sometimes you know you just know what the pub is you're going to visit after the landmark.
00:25:08 Nicky
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:25:08 Ben
Sometimes it's like outside the castle gate. Sometimes it's just on the Thames you.
00:25:13 Ben
Know you get.
00:25:14 Ben
A good feeling.
00:25:14 Ben
But sometimes.
00:25:17 Nicky
Moving onto the other Brunel things, there's one particular bridge that I think that Bruno was famous for that I do not believe.
00:25:24 Nicky
Is in the book.
00:25:26 Ben
Are you thinking?
00:25:26 Ben
Of the Clifton suspension bridge.
00:25:29 Nicky
That's probably what I would consider one of the most iconic bridges.
00:25:33 Nicky
In in England.
00:25:35 Chris
Yes, the the most monumental image of Bristol. It's like our postcard.
00:25:41 Chris
Our fridge magnets. I didn't realise this it was. It was a competition to design this bridge that had been set up like decades in advance by a guy who didn't have enough money.
00:25:53 Chris
But he put this fund together and he was like, invest this make it grow. And when it's big enough, build whatever bridge wins the competition so it had been going for like.
00:26:03 Chris
50 years by this point and a guy called Thomas Telford was in charge of this competition.
00:26:07 Chris
An epic engineer built the Menai Straits Bridge that connects Anglesey and he said no to pronounced.
00:26:13 Chris
Which panels design 'cause he didn't believe it could be built. He thought the span was too big for the kind of.
00:26:18 Chris
Bridge Brunell was proposing.
00:26:20 Chris
And this is the first of many instances I found of Brunell going.
00:26:25 Chris
What are you talking about?
00:26:28 Nicky
Yeah, like bring it on.
00:26:30 Chris
Is it time for me to go Brunelle fanboy?
00:26:32 Ben
Talents, talent talent progress.
00:26:33 Nicky
Yeah, let's go.
00:26:35 Chris
So it all starts with this Great Western rail.
00:26:39 Speaker 3
Right?
00:26:40 Chris
Which was like 1836 onwards. Pretty new invention. The railways and Bruno was like really interested. Some businessmen in Bristol wanted to link to London like for HS two of its day and they got Brunell to go and find.
00:26:53 Chris
A route.
00:26:53 Speaker 3
Hey hi.
00:26:54 Chris
So he did. He spent years designing this route, designing the railway itself, so it was.
00:27:00 Chris
This thing called broad gauge rather than standard gauge. A wider set of tracks that if we had adopted instead of what we did adopt, would have faster trains, better trains, all sorts of improvements now.
00:27:14 Ben
That's that's upsetting to hear.
00:27:17 Speaker 4
It was 100.
00:27:17 Chris
And 16 miles long and HS2 phase one is only 134. Was genuinely like.
00:27:25 Speaker 3
Wow, wow.
00:27:25 Chris
His epic epic project, someone made a joke that it was well, not a joke, so made the statement that it was too expensive and Brunell response was to say Oh no, I don't think it goes long enough. Might we should extend it. We should go to New York from Bristol.
00:27:44 Chris
Which led to.
00:27:45
I'm like.
00:27:45 Chris
Him building the SS Great Western, so the Great Western Railway, London to Bristol SS Great Western Bristol to New York.
00:27:56 Ben
Nice, quite an extension. Yeah yeah.
00:27:59 Chris
This led to him building the first steamship to have across the Atlantic under steam power, without using.
00:28:05 Ben
Sales and that would be SS. Great Britain, right?
00:28:08 Chris
That was the SS Great West.
00:28:10 Chris
And it started as a.
00:28:11 Chris
Joke Bruno was just like **** you. I'll go further.
00:28:14 Ben
It's pronounced starting to remind me of Tony Stark.
00:28:17 Ben
And the advantages.
00:28:19 Ben
Just make the impossible happen.
00:28:21 Nicky
Be like calm. And then we'll we'll.
00:28:23 Nicky
Give it a go at least.
00:28:24 Nicky
Right, yeah, he's cocky.
00:28:26 Nicky
You want to get from London to New York.
00:28:28 Nicky
You got it.
00:28:29 Ben
Yeah, I'll build it.
00:28:30 Chris
So Brunel's London to Bristol. It goes through through this corridor called Fulton Bank, which is well, they always have to be built pretty flat.
00:28:42 Chris
So where there's a valley, you build an embankment or a bridge, and where there's a hill you.
00:28:47 Chris
Cut through it.
00:28:48 Chris
So the whole Great Western Railway was termed Brunell billiards table. It was so flat and my first major job as an engineer professionally was going to one of these major earthworks that Brunell it done and expanding it and re stabilising it.
00:29:08 Chris
So I spent the first two years of my career.
00:29:09 Nicky
Oh my gosh.
00:29:10 Speaker 3
Oh, that's cool.
00:29:11 Chris
Hi, working to improve for Anals rail.
00:29:15 Speaker 3
Way, ah
00:29:16 Ben
Oh, that's awesome. That's great so.
00:29:20 Ben
Yeah, you think you know more than Brunell do you, Chris?
00:29:24 Chris
I I absolutely don't. I absolutely don't.
00:29:27 Chris
Yeah, he put it all in place and he let his man Charles Richardson do the earthworks themselves, was kind of oversight while I was researching what was there to do the work, there were a set of articles in the Bristol naturalists proceedings.
00:29:44 Chris
That explained like how he had built this thing, because it was like actually amazing what he'd done and we used all of this.
00:29:51 Chris
Like 200 year old information to piece together.
00:29:56 Chris
What was there?
00:29:57 Chris
That we needed to build upon and to expand on and stabilise oh.
00:29:59 Speaker 6
That's so.
00:30:00 Ben
And that is a no. There will be historians who would.
00:30:05 Ben
Be very jealous that you got.
00:30:07
Yeah, that is.
00:30:07 Ben
Like that is real.
00:30:08 Ben
Engaging with history that many people get.
00:30:10 Ben
Yeah, yeah yeah, that's fantastic.
00:30:11 Nicky
I was going to.
00:30:12 Nicky
Say that M.
00:30:13 Nicky
C. Bringing it all together like I said.
00:30:17 Chris
Engineering and history are basically the same thing.
00:30:20 Chris
I've always said this.
00:30:21 Ben
You always made that argument. I am. I feel brunell.
00:30:28 Ben
I feel pronounced legacy quite strongly. Every time I get a train. In fact, most of the trains I get are brunels trains, the Great Western Railway.
00:30:36 Ben
My trains are either between Cardiff and London, which is the Brunel or if I ever got the train down to Exeter as a student that was also part of his railway network and so thank you Brunelle for that.
00:30:50 Ben
I reckon Brunel biggest legacy is actually a bit of a hidden legacy, and one that's very relevant for Chris and I and to the people of Wales generally because.
00:31:00 Ben
Brunel, one of his engineering projects when he wants to build Cardiff Central station, he straightened and changed the course of the river in Cardiff.
00:31:09 Ben
The river task and yeah so he just diverted the River Taff from its mediaeval St pattern, where it used to go build the station in the dry land that that.
00:31:20 Ben
Same as result, but the other thing that with all this dryland cardio, but mostly for us Chris on that land that was now created Cardiff Arms Park, formed which later in time became the Millennium Stadium. So we've got. We've got Brunel to thank for.
00:31:38 Ben
For you know, for the Cathedral of Welsh Rugby that is the.
00:31:40 Ben
Millennium Stadium today.
00:31:42 Nicky
And also another landmark Oh my God, it all comes still comes. It comes full circle.
00:31:42 Ben
Thank you.
00:31:48 Ben
It's fingerprints all over there.
00:31:50 Chris
I bet you could link 250 of your landmarks to him.
00:31:54 Speaker 3
We can get that go and.
00:31:55 Speaker 3
Give a good deal.
00:31:57 Ben
OK so Chris, we ask each guest to rate the landmark we visited out of 10 on the following factors, which we'd like you to do.
00:32:04 Ben
For, well, the Thames tunnel. It's in my book as the Brunel engine House and that's why I think you would find today if you Googled it.
00:32:10 Ben
So Chris the Brunel engine house for its historical significance. What would you rate it out?
00:32:16 Ben
Of 10 and why?
00:32:18 Chris
Not as high as I'd like to say.
00:32:20 Chris
Because it it let people across the Thames better. They could already cross the tips and little fairies or whatever.
00:32:27 Chris
But in terms of what it kicked off and the fact that it.
00:32:28 Speaker 3
That's a good point.
00:32:31 Chris
Springboarded isn't barred into.
00:32:33 Chris
Inked and then opened up Britain through his railways and it's got a lot of like knock on major historical impact. So on that basis I'm going to go.
00:32:45 Chris
08
00:32:48 Ben
It's high but good.
00:32:50 Ben
Argument made for the yeah the the knock on impact and I think the brunels generally deserve an 8.
00:32:56 Ben
Out of 10.
00:32:56 Ben
Fair Well reasoned 8 OK Chris, the next next rating is the fun factor we're actually visiting this site today.
00:33:06 Ben
What's the fun factor out of 10?
00:33:09 Chris
So I'm guessing zero is all of those battlefields you've been to where there's nothing to see.
00:33:19 Ben
You know that's there's an open debate on that.
00:33:19 Speaker 3
Ding Ding Ding.
00:33:23 Chris
OK, given the fact that what we went to visit was.
00:33:26 Chris
The Thames Tunnel and the shaft didn't give us entrance into the tunnel, it was just the shaft and a little bit of a museum.
00:33:34 Chris
Even though it was a lovely shaft full.
00:33:36 Chris
Of piano, music and stairs which Nicky didn't have and some nice little features. I don't think it deserves more than maybe a 5.
00:33:47 Ben
At 5 hour time for the fun factor.
00:33:50 Ben
There's there's something unique about going into it into.
00:33:52 Ben
A massive shaft.
00:33:52 Speaker 6
But yeah, I can't.
00:33:57 Nicky
I just think.
00:33:58 Nicky
It every time. It's funny every time.
00:34:01 Ben
Just broodals massive shock.
00:34:06 Nicky
I, I think maybe if you went for a concert it.
00:34:09 Nicky
Could be a 6.
00:34:10 Chris
Definitely yeah you have a look. It sparks off a joy in Brunels. They last you a lifetime and takes you to all sorts of amazing places that blow your mind.
00:34:20 Chris
Maybe it's 6.
00:34:24 Ben
The the Mayflower Pub just round the corner, does. I mean I would give it another half a point? At least. I reckon 3rd. And finally Chris out of 10 for its in store worthiness. This is how how photogenic this landmark is.
00:34:36 Chris
Oh, that doesn't seem fair. That's super low. It's really dark.
00:34:41 Ben
Yeah, yeah, it's.
00:34:42 Ben
It's it's. It's not great for photography, is it?
00:34:42 Chris
How good you flashed.
00:34:46 Nicky
I would maybe dispute that there are some pretty good pictures of it. If you look online there's like loads of different rainbow light. There's the piano.
00:34:54 Chris
Rainbow lights 10.
00:34:56 Nicky
It looks rustic. Well it looks like a kind of it looks at the sort of place that you could have a really interesting like art exhibition.
00:34:57 Ben
OK.
00:35:03 Ben
Yes, I can imagine that.
00:35:05 Chris
Can I add in the consideration that that photo of Brunell with the chains behind him? I can't think of a better photo.
00:35:12 Chris
I'm going to fight with Daddy and I'm going to factor in the fact that we saw through those little stage 3D things and I I'm going to say A7.
00:35:20 Ben
Oh, it's generous. That is more generous than I was expecting.
00:35:23 Chris
It's far more generous than I wanted to give it.
00:35:25 Nicky
Oh, we're gonna have some comments about that.
00:35:27 Chris
OK, lower it whatever.
00:35:29 Chris
OK, for the landmark for the photos that you can get of the Thames Tunnel or the shaft. Currently I'm going.
00:35:38 Chris
To give him.
00:35:39 Chris
A generous 4.
00:35:41 Nicky
So we're talking at 1730.
00:35:45 Chris
Only just over.
00:35:46
Half marks.
00:35:47 Ben
That feels about right. We'd recommend a visit.
00:35:50 Nicky
Yeah I would, yeah.
00:35:51 Speaker 3
OK.
00:35:55 Nicky
So Chris, part three is my favourite bit. I've said it many times because Ben doesn't know anything about it and it is a landmark of your choosing that's not from the book. Would you like to introduce your alternative historical landmarks, Ben.
00:36:12 Chris
I would and this is going to surprise you Ben because for this Brunell bonanza it's not a Brunell landmark, it's it's.
00:36:20 Speaker 6
What what?
00:36:23 Chris
Sprang to mind immediately when I was asked it, and it's actually something we've talked about quite a lot in the last couple of years.
00:36:31 Chris
On various zoom chats in the last couple of years and it is the empty plinth that used to house the Colston statue.
00:36:39 Speaker 6
Oh great one yeah yes yes yes. Super relevant Chris I love it.
00:36:42 Nicky
That's a good one.
00:36:48 Nicky
It's super relevant, and also I always enjoy it when people pick things that are from.
00:36:53 Nicky
That's where they live. And you're saying Chris that you and Ben have talked about this over the last year and a half, since it's been a news item.
00:36:59 Chris
Yeah, a lot of those zoom calls that used to happen back in the day of lockdown. We we were we were watching it happen.
00:37:06 Chris
We saw the news we we all kind of experienced it from afar. But the day after it happened I I took a walk into the harbour. It's like cut one out from where I live.
00:37:17 Chris
Walked around that empty plinth, and it was kind of like this is the centre of something that is happening.
00:37:23 Chris
This is like part of a movement power revolution. It was name checked in a George George Floyd's funeral speech.
00:37:25 Nicky
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:31 Chris
Oh wow, I've got it here. Actually, the Reverend Al Sharpton in Texas. He said all over the world I've seen grandchildren of slave masters tearing down slave master statues over in England. They put it in there.
00:37:38 Nicky
Is it?
00:37:45 Chris
Never that was that was like that was heard by everyone and it's a bit of a retaliation as yeah, sorted list at the city, absolutely.
00:37:46
Oh wow.
00:37:55 Ben
Yeah, I just say Chris that this is a great choice by the way and it was really funny how Bristol was the centre of the world and that they used their new cycle was at summer of 2020.
00:38:07 Speaker 6
And Chris is right.
00:38:07 Ben
We used to used to have weekly poker games in that first lockdown, and normally you know the chat would be about.
00:38:14 Ben
Sport TV film
00:38:17 Ben
You know standard stuff and and when this all was happening, the news we were chatting about historical figures and commemoration and the rights or wrongs of.
00:38:27 Ben
Of how we.
00:38:27 Ben
Remember the British Empire etc if.
00:38:29 Ben
It really caught our attention, didn't it? Obviously, you know we like some of us talk about history all the time, but this was like a massive national international conversation that was sparked by this statue.
00:38:41 Nicky
Well, it was sparked by the murder of George Floyd.
00:38:44 Ben
Torches, yeah no. Of course you're absolutely right, yeah.
00:38:48 Nicky
And and obviously the there was a huge amount of protests in in Bristol generally, but this just sort of came that this was kind of like the the pinnacle of it, really. The the statue being chucked in.
00:38:56 Speaker 3
Huge yeah.
00:39:00 Nicky
So Chris, you were saying that?
00:39:01 Nicky
You've been reading about about Colston.
00:39:04 Speaker 3
Yeah he.
00:39:05 Chris
He was he was from.
00:39:06 Chris
Bristol did a lot in London in while he was in London. He was a big part of the The Africa Company.
00:39:13 Chris
Me, the Royal African Company there. There isn't much evidence that he ever even met a black person, but he gained a lot of money from the trade that he had through that right that slave triangle. He gave a huge amount of money to Bristol. It looks like and about.
00:39:28 Speaker 3
Right?
00:39:33 Chris
Half of what he left in his will was to the hospitals and schools and arms houses that he had.
00:39:40 Chris
Set up and.
00:39:42 Chris
A lot of it seems quite self aggrandizing he like had societies and parts of his will that were like you will Remember Me on my birthday and do these things and it was very self centred.
00:39:52
All right?
00:39:54 Chris
But there's there's a.
00:39:55 Chris
Bit of a kind of contradiction about whether he like.
00:40:00 Chris
Whether he had that close enough contact that he knew what he was doing.
00:40:04 Chris
Surely he did and then all of that money that he put back in his philanthropic ways. That meant that he had a statue up. None of it was to benefit the black people that he had gained from them.
00:40:18 Ben
Am I right in saying Chris that it that he didn't erect the statue of himself? It was it was put up quite a few generations later, wasn't it?
00:40:26 Chris
Yeah, quite a lot.
00:40:26 Nicky
Later I read that it was put up because there was a another statue that was put up of someone in Bristol or near Bristol. I can't remember who it was actually.
00:40:38 Nicky
Insert name here.
00:40:39 Nicky
A man who was a critic of slavery and was an abolitionist, and in order to balance out.
00:40:50 Nicky
The argument, supposedly they put up a statue of of him as like to to see the both sides of it, and that's initially how it came about.
00:41:01 Ben
Wow OK OK.
00:41:01 Nicky
But, and it was only after the statue that was put up that people started reading about him and realising actually this isn't.
00:41:10 Nicky
This guy's not so great.
00:41:12 Chris
Yeah, you seem to be great to the poor of Bristol.
00:41:15 Nicky
Yeah, yeah, exactly. People that were like relevant to him.
00:41:19 Chris
Benton, but gained a lot from this slave trade that he never even attempted to repay. I went to a couple of talks that we had last year doing or the working from home stuff. We had one from David Olusoga and one from Marvin Rees.
00:41:35 Chris
The current Mayor of Bristol. Those are both of whom are black and both of whom talked about how?
00:41:36
Oh yeah.
00:41:41 Chris
Difficult. They'd always found that statue having kind of pride of place in Bristol. And it was.
00:41:47 Chris
Kind of a.
00:41:48 Chris
Sign of this is my city, but maybe it's built on oppression of me and I'm not welcome. Kind of very mixed feelings about it.
00:41:58 Chris
I, I think there were a lot of people very happy when it went down and a lot of the conversations we had were about what?
00:42:04 Chris
Should have.
00:42:04 Chris
Been done with it.
00:42:05 Chris
And it looks like.
00:42:08 Chris
It's been held in M shed A.
00:42:12 Chris
Museum in Bristol really near me for the while since it happened and they're now taking votes on what they should do with it, and my vote is that they put it back with all the graffiti next to the prints and put it in glass so that you can see the empty plants with what was on the prints and the whole story.
00:42:32 Chris
Put it together.
00:42:34 Ben
Yes, interesting idea.
00:42:36 Nicky
Yeah, Banksy designed like an illustration similar to his his others, and it's got and and he sold T shirts and bags of it to raise money to support the four people that are facing trial for toppling statue.
00:42:55 Chris
I I think it.
00:42:55 Chris
Be awful if they if they were.
00:42:59 Chris
Properly punished for it, yes, I guess it was vandalism, but it was symbolic and it was important and it was part of a wider conversation and like he said Ben, we it got us talking. It got the whole of Britain talking.
00:43:15 Nicky
By punishing people doing things like that it doesn't. It doesn't help because it's almost saying, well, Oh no, no, no, that's not the right way of doing things.
00:43:24 Nicky
Well, actually they've been. People have been campaigning for years to have it taken down for years and it's just bureaucracy and not knowing what to do with things like the the one we've talked about previously, Ben.
00:43:26 Speaker 3
Right, yeah?
00:43:36 Nicky
Cecil Rhodes yes, I know we talked about.
00:43:38 Nicky
With Ash hadn't.
00:43:39 Speaker 3
Here and here.
00:43:39 Nicky
We about, you know in decision about what to do with something.
00:43:43 Nicky
Sometimes just means nothing happens at all and it takes it takes an event like this to to force people to make a decision about something.
00:43:50 Ben
Yeah, I think I think.
00:43:52 Ben
I'm right in saying Chris that at least one of the centres in Bristol, named after Colston, has been renamed.
00:44:00 Chris
So the Colston Hall has now been renamed to Bristol Beacon and I like that because it's it's a modern building.
00:44:08 Chris
It was built after Colston like there's no need for it to be associated with him because he built the original thing that was in that space I. I think keeping Colston there is.
00:44:20 Chris
And an acknowledgement that you are aggrandizing him that you're agreeing with him. So the road names. I'm kind of whatever on that, right? It's.
00:44:30 Chris
Part of history, it doesn't need to be a good part of history to be a road name, but to plinth and the statue.
00:44:38 Chris
The fact that they that is down that can be shown as down and that story can be told. I think that covers everything. It gives you the the more wide picture and the thought provoke provocation.
00:44:51 Ben
This is a really tricky issue for me. There are some historical figures who.
00:44:57 Ben
I'm very happy that we're not celebrating like we used to, and you know someone associated with something like this.
00:45:04 Ben
Slave trade.
00:45:05 Ben
That statues can come down, but.
00:45:07 Ben
And unfortunately, most historical figures, if not all historical figures you know, we know if we apply today's standards to them, they're going to come across as horrendous people.
00:45:18 Ben
And then I don't know. I don't know what to do next. I don't know whether we take down all the statues or none.
00:45:24 Ben
Of the statues.
00:45:25 Ben
It's it's something that I.
00:45:26 Speaker 6
Really, really.
00:45:27
Struggle with.
00:45:27 Chris
Like you don't need to make a unanimous decision like Nick you were saying you you can uh, minnaar about it and you can have polls and councils and whatever but.
00:45:38 Chris
If the people decide.
00:45:40 Chris
And and something is done about it then that is the point where you like, write that ones down.
00:45:47 Ben
Well, yeah I I would have to agree. Although Preston it sets is that people would, rightly or wrongly people might take it in their own hands to bring.
00:45:54 Ben
Down other.
00:45:55 Ben
Statues and and maybe maybe that is maybe that is right, maybe that is.
00:46:00 Ben
How change happens?
00:46:01 Nicky
I do think that there's other things other than statues. We've got a lot of other ways to.
00:46:04
Oh yeah.
00:46:06 Nicky
There to talk about people in a more rounded way. Or perhaps I did also see an argument about the Colston statue which was saying that originally what they were planning to do is put a second plaque on, like on the statue before it got toppled, which actually just gave you all the information that you could need.
00:46:26 Nicky
About the statue that just said, you know, This is why it's here, but this is also what this guy did.
00:46:32 Chris
I don't think that is emotive enough. I want I want the empty prints.
00:46:38 Chris
I want coleston lying down next to it. I want that to be protected so that is the view you will always see, but I think that that has that has the whole.
00:46:48 Chris
Story behind it.
00:46:49 Chris
The history of this guy was good. This guy was bad. We have now changed as a society. This has come about and it it kind of.
00:46:57 Chris
As a picture takes you through that evolution night.
00:47:01 Nicky
Yeah, and it shows you the the change of the society and the attitudes as as well as just what this guy did.
00:47:08 Ben
Oh, this is a great alternative landmark and when?
00:47:13 Ben
Clive wrote his book in 2005.
00:47:15 Ben
He's yeah, Edward Colston. His statue is up there so when we come to write our book, I think this is a very very interesting. In fact, strong contender for entry into our into our alternative.
00:47:26 Ben
List it's a great one.
00:47:28 Nicky
Yeah, and when when that day comes we'll have to find out what's happened to the statue in the end.
00:47:33 Chris
Yeah true.
00:47:35 Ben
I mean, Chris, you know you know it's part of.
00:47:37 Ben
Benjamin Britten of.
00:47:38 Ben
Course we take a photo when we go visit these landmarks, and sometimes it's tricky.
00:47:43 Ben
Sometimes it's tricky to know how to strike the right tone when you're taking a photo. You don't always want big grins, so.
00:47:49 Ben
The question to you is the question we ask every guest, which is if we if we go to the empty plinth as it is today, what photo are we taking there Chris?
00:47:58 Chris
Come to.
00:47:59 Chris
Soon don't care about tone. We are standing on that prints while Edward Colston is beneath us and we are grinning.
00:48:07 Chris
And we are having that photo as our selfie and Coulson could be.
00:48:08 Speaker 3
OK.
00:48:11 Chris
In it he's.
00:48:12 Chris
On the floor, that's fine, that's fine, but.
00:48:14 Chris
That that's that's the further needs to happen.
00:48:15 Speaker 6
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:18 Nicky
Yeah, that's a storytelling photo right there, yeah?
00:48:23 Ben
Absolutely a bit of a.
00:48:24 Ben
Celebration actually I think it's great addition, grace nicely played.
00:48:29 Nicky
Chris, Ben, what's the next? What's number 10 going to be Landmark 10 going to be?
00:48:34 Chris
It's a surprise, right? I'm not allowed.
00:48:36 Chris
To know yet.
00:48:37 Ben
Yeah, I've got a surprise in store for Chris, but Chris.
00:48:40 Ben
Are there any other any places?
00:48:41 Ben
You want to visit which which I haven't seen.
00:48:44
2 yet.
00:48:45 Chris
What I want is for us to find a super historically important thing that laid foundations that didn't happen in Britain and for us to do your first international edition.
00:49:00 Ben
Oh nice.
00:49:03 Ben
The thing is, Chris, well I I've taken on this challenge and I'm very happy to do so. But as I've said before on the record, I never want to do anything like this ever again in my entire life, so I'll leave the international.
00:49:14 Ben
Landmarks to to you.
00:49:15 Chris
Hey you do your 500 and then we can go and sunbathe on Normandy beaches.
00:49:21 Ben
OK, OK, it's old, I mean.
00:49:23 Nicky
There we go.
00:49:24 Ben
Yeah, this is our season opener Chris. Thanks, thanks for launching us into into 2022 Chris. It's been a pleasure.
00:49:30 Chris
I hope you can cut it down to something that vaguely makes sense.